Jordan Soto, executive producer, Hart Energy: A third of all carbon emissions come from transportation. So how do we mitigate that issue? Find out how this company is working to tackle the issue and working to make hydrogen affordable and practical in this Hart Energy LIVE exclusive interview.

Tom Stephenson, CEO, Pajarito Powder: Right. So what Pajarito Powder does is it makes catalyst. What we make is we make black powder—very simple—but ends up being critically important in being able to have fuel cells and electrolyzers; green energy production, green energy usage, be affordable and practical because it helps to bring down the cost dramatically by using less platinum, less iridium [and] less other precious metals.

JS: So you are here at this conference to speak about fuel cells and green hydrogen. Where do you think these industries stand today?

TS: It's a very exciting time for these industries right now because there's a huge amount of growth that's going on. And one of the things that's particularly exciting about being here is seeing the amount of growth that's going on in the United States as we start to catch up, frankly, to other regions like Europe and East Asia, Japan and Korea, places that have made these investments already in the development of hydrogen, both for fuel cells and for green hydrogen production. And so it's a very exciting time and we're starting to see a lot of growth.

JS: Where do you think these industries stand today and where do you expect them to be in five years from now?

TS: Yeah, so right now it's definitely still kind of a nascent industry. But there's huge numbers of projects that have been announced that will be implemented over the course of the next five to seven years. The real target is 2030. That's where people are focusing on having substantial implementation of hydrogen generation through green hydrogen and also through the use of that hydrogen in the form of fuel cells.

JS: What do you think is limiting the growth of green hydrogen and fuel cells?

TS: Well, clearly cost is one of the biggest pieces, all right? And that's the cost of the hydrogen and the cost of the fuel cell systems. And if you look and drill in a little bit more about what's actually gonna drive that cost, if we talk about fuel cell electric trucks, which is the likely first application for fuel cells at higher volumes, 50,000 trucks or more a year, the catalyst actually represents 60% of the total cost. And that's largely because there's a huge dependence on the amount of precious metal platinum that's gonna be in those. And so we have to get those cost numbers down to start to get closer to economic parity with the internal combustion engine for it to be widely accepted within the marketplace.

JS: How does that scarcity of those precious metals limit the hydrogen economy?

TS: Well, the precious metals are tricky because not only are they very expensive, but exactly to your point, they're very scarce. So this is even more of a problem when you talk about green hydrogen production, which uses a precious metal called iridium and iridium costs six to eight times more than platinum. And the bigger problem is that if you look at the projects that have been projected between now and 2030, there's not enough iridium in the world to be able to actually do all of those unless we come up with better ways, like better catalysts to be able to utilize that iridium and be more effective to when we implement green hydrogen solutions.

JS: So what's next for Pajarito Powder?

TS: Well, it's an exciting time for us, just as it is for the industry. We're actually in the process of moving into a new manufacturing and headquarters facility that's gonna be about four times the size of the one that we have currently. The team's very, very excited about that. That's gonna give us the ability to expand our production by 20-fold over the course of the coming years as we look to scale up with the industry going forward. And so for us, that's a big part of what we're doing to be able to support the industry, both on the fuel cell side and on the green hydrogen production side.

JS: Learn more about fuel cells and green hydrogen online at hartenergy.com.

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